{"content":{"sharePage":{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"40094898","dateCreated":"1294613780","smartDate":"Jan 9, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/literatureandlearning2010.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/40094898"},"dateDigested":1532917470,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"How does \"If We Must Die\" relate to The Shawshank Redemption so far?","description":"Please respond to the question and at least one other person's post.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"40095056","body":"Response to prompt:
\n
\nIn "If We Must Die" the major message conveyed is that people should choose to die with dignity and honor rather than with humiliation or compliance. The author is stating that the victims should resist against the unjust, dominating powers and put up a fight, rather than just adhering to the "common foe." Although at times the victims might be outnumbered by the opponent, very much like the situation in "The Shawshank Redemption" where Andy was trapped by the Sisters, the victims should bravely fight back and show them that they are not weak. Andy also fought back against the Sisters in the prison every time, despite the fact that he rarely ever won. Although beaten and abused, Andy fought for himself and the ultimately, he fought for the future of the prisoners at Shawshank, keeping the prison clear from any further assaults from the Sisters.
\n
\nResponse to Kathy: After reading the poem, I had initially only thought about Andy however after reading Kathy's response I could also see how there is link between the minor characters (i.e. the fat man) and Brook with the theme of the types of death in the sonnet. While the former died without dignity, Brook died what McKay would state to be a "noble" death.","dateCreated":"1294843957","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095058","body":"MONICA'S RESPONSE (SAME ONE AS ABOVE)
\n
\nResponse to prompt:
\n
\nIn "If We Must Die" the major message conveyed is that people should choose to die with dignity and honor rather than with humiliation or compliance. The author is stating that the victims should resist against the unjust, dominating powers and put up a fight, rather than just adhering to the "common foe." Although at times the victims might be outnumbered by the opponent, very much like the situation in "The Shawshank Redemption" where Andy was trapped by the Sisters, the victims should bravely fight back and show them that they are not weak. Andy also fought back against the Sisters in the prison every time, despite the fact that he rarely ever won. Although beaten and abused, Andy fought for himself and the ultimately, he fought for the future of the prisoners at Shawshank, keeping the prison clear from any further assaults from the Sisters.
\n
\nResponse to Kathy: After reading the poem, I had initially only thought about Andy however after reading Kathy's response I could also see how there is link between the minor characters (i.e. the fat man) and Brook with the theme of the types of death in the sonnet. While the former died without dignity, Brook died what McKay would state to be a "noble" death.","dateCreated":"1294844063","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095060","body":"Lauren's response
\n
\nFrom the excerpt "If We Must Die", the main message that I noticed the most was the part about how men should not give up their dignity and honor for fear against death. It clearly mentions the fact that men should put a fight against any desperate or hopeless situations. It almost makes it sound as if the fight is no longer about winning or losing but mainly about how nobly and honorably one dies with pride. This excerpt definitely in several different ways seems to connect with the movie, the Shawshank Redemption. For example from Andy's fight against "the sisters" it shows, his bravery and courage to go against the opposition that he disagrees with. Secondly, this movie in general shows the idea of persistence to fight back and keeping one's own opinion and side. From Andy entering and leaving the Shawshank to taking a revenge on Norton, it shows the result of a honorable fight against what one believes in.
\n
\nResponse to Monica
\n
\nI agree with Monica and her idea of how the situation in the Shawshank Redemption representing the idea of being outnumbered and being placed in a hopeless and desperate situation. Also after reading Monica's response, it made me also agree on the fact that the poem also focuses on the idea of marking compliance as a shameful act, and that any one should keep their own opinion and belief, no matter how hard the situation gets.","dateCreated":"1294850524","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095062","body":"The poem by Mckay and Shawshank are related because it talks about the the value of life and death. In Shawshank, Andy realizes that he must escape from prison and disclose all the dirty facts of the officers in prison, after he found some proofs about his innocence. Not every prisoners are in prison because they committed crime. Some of them are there because they were just accused of committing the crime, although they were innocent. I think Andy trying to prove his innocence to the officer was related to a specific line in the poem. "If we must die, O let us nobly die,
\nSo that our precious blood may not be shed
\nIn vain." I think nobly dying means someone who is not dying because of others mistake. The reason for dying but be natural and not abused. The poem continues and says that "then even the monsters we defy\/ Shall be constrained to honor us though dead." In here, I think the monsters represent the officers or the judge who represents the public's eye because they put him into jail. Andy didn't want to be remembered as a murderer, which is why I think he escaped from prison to disclose such negative perspectives of the whole system.","dateCreated":"1294851191","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095064","body":"The poem by Mckay and Shawshank are related because it talks about the the value of life and death. In Shawshank, Andy realizes that he must escape from prison and disclose all the dirty facts of the officers in prison, after he found some proofs about his innocence. Not every prisoners are in prison because they committed crime. Some of them are there because they were just accused of committing the crime, although they were innocent. I think Andy trying to prove his innocence to the officer was related to a specific line in the poem. "If we must die, O let us nobly die,
\nSo that our precious blood may not be shed
\nIn vain." I think nobly dying means someone who is dying naturally with no other accusation rather than dying because of others mistake. The poem continues and says that "then even the monsters we defy\/ Shall be constrained to honor us though dead." In here, I think the monsters represent the officers or the judge who represents the public's eye because they put him into jail. Andy didn't want to be remembered as a murderer, which is why I think he escaped from prison to disclose such negative perspectives of the whole system.
\n
\nResponse to Lauren
\n
\nI agree with Lauren that the main message "was the part about how men should not give up their dignity and honor for fear against death." I think we had the same idea about how death had more inside connotation than just physically dying. I also agree with her examples because that was when Andy realized his goals for the future.","dateCreated":"1294851676","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095066","body":"The level of suffering and the voice of those sufferers are well-delivered through "If We Must Die." It presents a passionate, emotional tone that allows the reader to hear the sufferers' toil. It essentially cries out for bravery and courage.
\n
\nSuch portrayal was also seen in The Shawshank Redemption, for Andy Dufresne's actions show that courage and justice may serve oneself well. Andy not only overcame the Sisters, but also gained camaraderie from his courageousness. By not remaining a coward but standing up, so that his "blood may not be shed in vain," Andy became a successful man within his environment. After all, Andy is innocent, "just like everyone else."","dateCreated":"1294852438","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095068","body":"Moreover, though the prisoners have sinned and received their punishments accordingly, many of them are seen to strive for rehabilitation. They want to lead a cleaner, better, and a balanced life. For them, the assailants may be themselves and their sins - thus they must fight against it and become better people. Perhaps if they rehabilitate and become better people, they may die "nobly."","dateCreated":"1294852631","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095070","body":"Response to Sylvia:
\n
\nI agree with your interpretation of McKay's stance on death. I also believe that it is better for a man to die an actual man, than to die an animal as a mistreated being. In other words, people deserve to die with some dignity. But I also remind myself that those prisoners are also sinners. They must serve their time to die honorably, or nobly. Thus, they must do their best within their abilities to truly transform themselves. I still think that for the prisoners, it is often a fight against themselves. (Though many others have stated that the jail guards are too brutal, or how the prisoners get mistreated).","dateCreated":"1294852836","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095072","body":"The poem "If We Must Die" emphasized integrity and honor. The poem had a correlation between the African Americans and the whites. I believe that the poem has the same theme as the movie "The Shawshank Redemption." The men in the movie are constantly tortured by the officers that are supposed to guide them. By this factor, the men grow stronger together and form a bond that makes them family. Each one of them looks after eachother and the black character is close to Mckay, which once again shows the close relationships to the poem. Also, the main character is accused for a murder without solid evidence. He eventually goes to jail, but eventually becomes adjusted because the help of other cell mates. The poem briefly talks about the idea of helping, which Mckay's friend seem to portray. Overall, both these pieces linger around the theme of justice and injustice.
\n
\n-Cindy Choi","dateCreated":"1294869580","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095074","body":"Cindy -> Hajung
\n
\nI agree with Hajung's opinion, ". In relation to the movie The Shawshank Redemption, it's possible to see the injustice that the prisoners are faced with." The film as well as the poem unpurposefully emphasize justice and injustice. The prisoners aren't sure whether they were sentenced from evidence or not since they were found guilty through the court. The fact that these people were sent to jail without solid evidence makes the audience become aware of injustice in the society that the film portrays.","dateCreated":"1294869806","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095076","body":"The poem If We Must Due describes about a soul who wants to be dead in a fairly common ways just like the foes if it were to happen. It shows how victims, despite they had made a wrong choice previously, want to be treated fairly and not treated like the hogs The poem is similar to the movie Shawshank Redemption in a way that the movie portrays criminals or prisoners who are also victims of the society that they will encounter when they are out of prison. This is clear in the beginning of the movie where characters say that al prisoners are victims at certain point. Furthermore, the poem makes connections with the prisoners who are fighting back to live their lives despite the fact that they are treated unequally. The lives of the prisoners resemble the theme of the poem which illustrates the importance of fighting back and being brave despite the hardships these men go through.","dateCreated":"1294872318","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"40095078","body":"response - sam lee
\n
\nI like how you made the connection between the African Americans to the main character Andy. I agree on the point how these men are unwilling to be killed unjustly and maintain some justice. The connection with the Bogs is interesting as I have never thought about it in that way. I can see how Andy Dufresne kept trying to refuse the sisters, fighting back against them.","dateCreated":"1294872592","smartDate":"Jan 12, 2011","userCreated":{"username":"support","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/support","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1202793136\/support-lg.jpg"}}],"more":72}]}],"more":false},"comments":[]},"http":{"code":200,"status":"OK"},"redirectUrl":null,"javascript":null,"notices":{"warning":[],"error":[],"info":[],"success":[]}}